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Poster: Brad Leblanc Date: Feb 11, 2005 7:53am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Discuss: Evaluation Time for LMA Deriver (mp3, ogg generator)

I wanted to point out the reaction this whole thing had to tapers since the beginning. I imagine there are lots of folks that don't have any idea what the tapers are thinking and this is a good way for them to learn how the other side thinks.

Well, if we're going to do that I think we should point out some more, real, examples of how it's been working out and what those tapers are thinking.

Jon Goldberg - Archivist for the Disco Biscuits - originally opted out of the lossy formats for the whole artist section. Then, 3 weeks ago sent us an email and requested that we create lossies for the entire artist section. (this will take awhile, not something we could do immediately) Jon has a team of about 15 tapers and uploaders working with him to coordinate all the Bisco you find here.

Eric Vandercar - tapes moe. and the Radiators every once in a blue moon. :) Originally was an opt-out taper, now includes lossies for all of his uploads and has agreed to activate them on all of his past contributions.

Joel Hudson of - if for some reason the streaming files are missing on 1 of his hundreds of recordings here, he's quick to do quality control and let us know it needs fixing.

Chase Banna - mentions above "Personally, I find that since lossy audio formats have been added here it hasn't affected me at all as a taper."

Matt Vernon - without who's help we wouldn't have had any of the GD and Phil recordings - "I have had email correspondence with many heretofore lossless shn collectors who also like the streaming option to sample or listen at work."

Charlie Miller - Steve Kimock Band archivist - now includes lossy files for all of his uploads.

Between those names we are talking about 6,000 recordings here. I don't think it's accurate to make this statement:

"this has been a big issue with the tapers, mostly with a negative standpoint"

I uploaded quite a few of the SCI recordings here. When the deriver was created, I asked the folks responsible for those tapes what they wanted me to do. Only 1 of them asked me to opt out. I went through the system and made sure all of his recordings had been set to "no-lossies". Afterwards, he sent me a batch of about 10 recordings to upload for him. I have not received a complaint from any members of that group.

Do some tapers feel uncomfortable with the system and the lossy files? Sure, we've been aware of that since day 1. Lots of them still opt-out. However, I don't think you can make the assumption that "Most Do".

So, moving on from this old issue, where do we go from here. Whatever side of the fence you are on, what can we do to make the deriver work better for you. If you are an opt-out uploader, what would make this system better for you. If you are an opt-in person, same deal, what can we improve.


This post was modified by Brad Leblanc on 2005-02-11 15:53:01

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Poster: SFSpearit Date: Feb 11, 2005 7:24am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Discuss: Evaluation Time for LMA Deriver (mp3, ogg generator)

Adding myself and, Dan Kramer who tape 98 % of Spearhead shows firmly support MP3 on LMA

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Poster: Jim F Date: Feb 11, 2005 7:44am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Discuss: Evaluation Time for LMA Deriver (mp3, ogg generator)

I think MP3 is a good idea. I've been stuck on a dial-up for 5 years, keeping the computer on virtually every night for 8 hours to get shows, mostly MP3, some SHN. I can deal with having lossy audio in my collection. I guess I'm a leech. But what is so wrong with accumulating a large collection of music? Isn't that what it's all about? Isn't that a good thing?

The archive's use of mp3 is great because they are archiving the shows in lossless formats, and also include the option to make things available in lossy formats for personal use. As long as everyone acts in good faith and doesn't trade the lossy shows maliciously, not informing others of their mp3/ogg gens, it is the perfect way to go. The archive can still maintain high standards for archiving audio while also making music easier to sample, fit on smaller hard drives, etc. Please keep the mp3's up and alive.

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Poster: ericv Date: Feb 11, 2005 3:47pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Discuss: Evaluation Time for LMA Deriver (mp3, ogg generator)

Brad prompted me to reply to this discussion (which I'll do while I'm waiting for my @FOB DPA4021s split recording of moe.'s Tsunami Benefit at Roseland to upload ;) and I'll try to keep to more practical comments and not overly echo previous comments.

First, my decision on what to upload has never been impacted by whether or not I permission lossy derivations. I am all for sharing the music regardless of how it is encoded. The only drawback that I might note is that the added derivations seem to slow down the process of getting shows in the public domain and arguably compound the potential of bugs getting in the way of the systems from completing the whole upload process.
Second, the main reason that I acquiesced was that I have good friends who have contacted me over the past year and told me that they really like streaming MP3s at their desk, etc. and many friends who really enjoy the convenience factor of MP3s and Ipods and of not having to convert the files on their own.
Third, while I virtually never listen to MP3s and haven't bought an Ipod (although I wish I bought stock in Apple about the time we started hosting MP3s!! :) I don't overly criticize people who do. Everyone should choose their own poison and everything is relative. While I think that lossless is very superior to lossy compression techniques, I recognize that (1) all digital music is in reality an approximation of continuous analog waves, (2) today's MP3s are of relatively high quality and (3) if I was such a purist why have I not fully evolved into the 24bit 96 or 192mHz realm?
Fourth, if folks want MP3s they are going to easily convert it themselves. I think there is a benefit in knowing that the LMA is at least providing them with high quality MP3s done right. The only lingering concern in many of our minds is that of folks taking MP3s and converting them back to WAVs or the like and/or not disclosing the true lineage.

In summary, I don't have a very strong opinion either way, but overall the benefits seem to usually outweigh the risks/costs.

peace, further...